Saturday, August 29, 2009

Let's Review Just for George and AOI

Lets do some math:
Do not recognize OCA autocephaly
Ecumenical Patriarchate
Patriarchate of Alexandria
Patriarchate of Jerusalem
Patriarchate of Antioch
Patriarchate of Romania
Patriarchate of Serbia
Patriarchate of Georgia
Patriarchate of Albania
Church of GreeceChurch of Cyprus
Church of Ukraine
Church of Finland
Church of Japan
SCOBA
OCA's autocephaly is fully recognized by
The OCA
Moscow PatriarchateBulgarian (parts)
Polish (parts aligned w/Moscow)

21 comments:

+++JN1034 said...

Amen. This listing is the way, the truth, and the life (with Constantnople on top, and the OCA lightly penciled in somewhere in the margins).

Dean said...

I'm all for math as well.

Let's attach the relevant populations of Orthodox in each country...then let's see how the math works out. Let's see, for starters, the Ecumenical Patriarchate 1200 (maybe), the Moscow Patriarchate - 100 million plus. I guess that makes the rest irrelevent eh?

However, I'm for being Orthodox too...meaning we look to Christ, not some universal "throne" for direction. If that is your belief, then you already have a church...it's called the Roman Catholic Church.

Here are some additional facts: Just about every Orthodox Church on the planet, (after the Roman era) began by declaring it's autocephaly from the Mother Church without that Mother Church's agreement or consent. It generally lived in schism for a period of up to 140 years (the case of the Russian Church) prior to it's recognition

Get over it...we're not getting Hagia Sophia back, and the OCA is not going anywhere....recognize it, don't recognize it...does anyone really care?

By the way, here's the letter we ought to be sending to the Old World patriarchates listed above. It's the same letter sent to Constantinople in 1452 by the Grand Prince of Kiev:

"We beseech your Sacred Majesty not to think that what we have done we did out of arrogance, nor to blame us for not writing to our Sovereignty beforehand; we did this from dire necessity, not from pride or arrogance. In all things we hold to the ancient Orthodox faith transmitted to us, and so we shall continue to do until the end of time. And our Russian Church, the holy metropolitanate of Russia, requests and seeks the blessing of the holy, oecumenical, catholic, and apostolic church of St. Sophia, the Wisdom of God, and is obedient to her in all things according to the ancient faith; and our father, the Lord Iona, metropolitan of Kiev and all Russia, likewise requests from her all manner of blessing and union, except for the present recently appeared disagreements."

It's long past time for Orthodox Unity on this continent...with or without the consent of the Old World patriarchates. To continue in a system of ethnically divided jurisdictions is clearly a heresy, and was branded as such by Constantinople itself, in 1872. And it will most certainly make us as extinct as the dinosaurs.

If we had an Ecumenical Throne still operating as such, rather than as a parochial minded head of a Greek Church, they would be leading the parade toward a united Church. Sts. Photios and John Chrysostom must be spinning in their graves.

Best Regards,
Constantinos Kalavritinos

elgreca262 said...

Constantinos, let's compare those numbers you presented with Jesus'. He had only 12. The gate to hell is wide and the way to salvation is but a path. We don't cut off the church leaders who are oppressed we embrace them.

elgreca262 said...

Costantinos, to use your argument and base the rules soley on population. The OCA would be absorbed easily by the GOA and we wouldn't even be having this exchange. ON a more important note is I completely disagree with your premis that the EP has only 1,200 'members'. You sound like a Turk. He is the Ecumenical Patriarch to over 250,000,000 faithful.

Dean said...

Dear Angela,

You've responded twice and have yet to make sense. You are welcome to keep trying of course.

Facts are a terrible thing, particularly when you are on the wrong side of an argument.

But I chuckled at your calling me a Turk...particularly since my family was in H Polis when it fell...that's pretty funny.

Keep up the name calling though...it generally means you have no real argument.

Efharisto para poli
Kalavritinos

Dean said...

PS - By the way, those pesty facts again - here are the actual churches which recognize the OCA's autocephaly:

Church of Russia
Church of Bulgaria
Church of Poland
Church of Georgia
Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia

And the last time I checked, the Church of Ukraine, Finland and Japan were all autonomous, not autocephalous churches.

The Albanian Church is not a patriarchate, even though it is autocephalous.

Finally - SCOBA, is nothing but an anomalous assembly of primates.

Best Regards,
Kalavritinos

+++JN1034 said...

This has been passed on to us by Holy Tradition, by the ancient Canons of the Church, and by the most recent pan-Orthodox conciliar decisions of the heads of all Orthodox churches worldwide:

Constantinople holds primacy over all jurisdictions throughout the worldwide pan-Orthodox diaspora. Thus, the members of all Orthodox Churches throughout the global diaspora count as communicants of the Phanar.

The June 2009 Pan-Orthodox Conference in Chambesy, of all heads of Orthodox churches, is clear and decisive: The Ecumenical Patriarchate has, had, and will have universal jurisdiction over each Orthodox diaspora region (http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/documents/chambesy)

For the States this reaffirms the seniority of the Greek Archdiocese, as the Exarchate of the Ecumenical Throne, over all jurisdictions in America. All Orthodox jurisdictions in the USA have not only accepted this pan-Orthodox ecclesiastic reality via SCOBA, but also they affirm its necessity. Even Metrop. Jonah, as the newest member of SCOBA, recognizes and acquiesces to the primacy of the Greek Archdiocese-Constantinople over the OCA.

Recently (20 June 2009), OCA Metrop. Jonah forecast the fate of his own jurisdiction: "Thus, the OCA’s charter and vocation is for it to disappear: it is kenotic" (http://www.oca.org/news/1864).

Many will beat their breasts. More will stamp their feet. Some may even hold their breaths. But the facts are valid and given as an universal Pan-Orthodox decree. Every Orthodox Church on Earth has spoken: The primus inter pares, the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the Mother Church, holds the diaspora in its ancient hands with the most modern of touches.

Those denying this ecclesiastic reality are either subversive forces against universal pan-Orthodox unity, or they're simply delusional.

So, Constantinos, as you emphasize: "To continue in a system of ethnically divided jurisdictions is clearly a heresy, and was branded as such by Constantinople itself, in 1872." Your fears now seem to be your own. These problems have been resolved.

The heads of all Orthodox Churches throughout the oikoumene have spoken, and are in agreement.

Isa Almisry said...

No, he doesn't.

The majority of the Orthodox in Constantinople are now Russian. Dealing with that real issue was discussed when the PoM was there.

No, the GOA wouldn't absorb the OCA. Omogeneia won't allow that.

The OCA icon of All Saints who have shone in America is rather large now, not all being canonized by the OCA. How big is the GOA's?

Let's also get our facts straight.
Russia, Georgia, Bulgaria, Poland, the Czech and Slovak lands and the OCA recognize the OCA's autocephaly. 6, that's a plurality there.

Antioch, Serbia, Romania and Albania are neutral. But Antioch freely admits it recognized Russian jurisdiction (and the OCA, not Antioch, canonized St. Raphael Hawaweeny), Serbia got canonical release from the Russian Mission, and Albania can't say much: the OCA Boston Albanian Archdiocese is the Mother Church of Albanian autocephaly. Romania might go negative as the recent talk on the OCA Romanian diocese has died. Bucharest sees no difference between that and its issues with Russia over Moldova.

Only, as Met. Jonah stated, the Greek controlled churches have dedicated themselves against the OCA's autocephaly: Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem (where they are killing the Church) and Cyprus, the same Churches that, when Meletios (whom we have to thank for much of our problems) was elected EP, refused to recognize him.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22981.msg352526/topicseen.html#msg352526
He was reconized only by those Russian bishops here, the proto-OCA, whom he condemned as uncanonical.

34220 Fener is not sovereign. I am not bound by any EP who emulates Nestorius or Sergius in twisting the Orthodox Faith. We have the original Pope in Alexandria, we don't need an imitation supreme pontiff.

Isa Almisry said...

Oh I forgot. Japan, Ukraine, and Finland are not autocephalous, so they don't get to recognize or reject anyone's autocephaly.

Japan and Ukraine's Patriarch (Moscow) recognizes the OCA's autocephaly.

Last time the EP questioned Finland's involvement with the OCA, Helsinki suggested it was time to rethink its relationship with the EP. See the nice letter on the OCA website that the Archbishop of Finland sent to Met. Jonah on this enthronement?

You say parts of Moscow, Bulgaria, Poland. Are you recognizing other schismatic groups, like the Old Calendarist Church of Greece?

elgreca262 said...

Calling someone a Turk is not pejorative so I suppose that speaks to your mindset. You speak like a Turk in that it is the official Turkish Policy to dictate the terms of the EP official title status and jurisdiction. I haven't called anyone names. But I love these extremist tactics. It would be like someone from AOI calling me hysterical. Now that was sexist. Hysterical is not a term I have noticed on the site in reference to any male postings.

elgreca262 said...

Isa, I am interested in the idea that the Christians in Turkey are Russian. I have been there three times totaling about 1 1/2 months and I saw Armenians, Catholics and Greeks. I even saw Jews ok not Christian but I didn't see too many Russians but it seems like you are making an argument which is off task. I am not even sure of your facts.

Isa Almisry said...

I did not say the Christians in Turkey, or rather the Turkish Republic (the Turks being in many places where they don't belong), are Russian. For one thing, thousands are Arab like me, and even some are Turkish (no, I don't mean Papa Eftim's group. Ones who recognize his All Holiness). What I said was that the majority of the Orthodox, due to Greek flight and Russian immigration to Constantinople (esp. Laleli), now constitute the majority of the Orthodox there, e.g.: "After the consecration, the church in territory of Russian consulate became the first church of the Moscow Patriarchate in Turkey. Before this time the Russians, living in Turkey and visitors, could only visit divine services in churches of Constantinople Patriarchate."
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6195

The comment is not off task: if this Russian diaspora grows at its present rate, what if they electe a Russian EP? (such may happen soon in Jerusalem, where Russians and converted Hebrews now constitute the majority). Ankara dare not stop them: look at the Russian delegation waltzing into Hagia Sophia and serving a memorial service as the helpless guards looking on (even the pope of Rome hid his Cross when he went). What will the Greeks do, and why should they do it?

Isa Almisry said...

JN1034: arguments such as you make is why Rome is no longer in communion with us.

I agree, the Episcopal Assembly scheme has been presented as the means to assert "The Ecumenical Patriarchate has, had, and will have universal jurisdiction over each Orthodox diaspora region," but the documents do not say that, nor is that the positon of the other heads (which, btw, since Met. Jonah was not included, is not "all"): As HE Hilarion, representing the PoM at Chambesy stated " In this way the gradual consolidation of Orthodox diasporas takes place, which we think can lead in the future to the emergence of new Local Orthodox Churches."
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=interview&div=73

JN1034: So Met. Jonah imitating Christ in being keonetic means that he is not autocephalous? Can we conclude then that Christ is not divine?

Btw, on Met. Jonah's comment "For example, if the OCA and Antiochian Archdiocese were to joing together, or rather to come back to their previous unity, who could dare object?": Met. Jonah has much support in ALL the jurisdictions here (I myself am in the Antiochian Archdiocese), and he knows it. The constitution the Patriarch of Antioch granted us envisions such a union.

Russia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, the Czech and Slovak Lands and even the CoG: in each and every case the EP beat his breast and stamped his foot and even held his breath at their autocephaly (as he did when Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Cyprus reasserted theirs). It took him 20 years to get over himself over the CoG, 75 years over Bulgaria. The OCA has been waiting 40 years: at least, unlike the CoG and Bulgaris, the EP didn't leave communion over the issue. The ancient Church of Georgia was granted her autocephaly in the "barbian lands" by Anticoh AFTER Chalcedon c. 28, with no say so from Constantinople.

The EP has all the Orthodox Churches in his grasp? I hope not, as he is firmly in the clutches of the Turk. May that grip be loosened!

Isa Almisry said...

Met. Jonah "recognizes and acquiesces to the primacy of the Greek Archdiocese-Constantinople over the OCA." LOL. Yeah, his commments this year show that. LOL. Look at your own link, the very next sentence after your quote, and what follows:"Either it is to become the basis for the unity of the rest of the Churches in America; or it must enter into a new organization that will be fully autocephalous. We await this day, eagerly, so that the mission of the Orthodox Church and the proclamation of the Gospel are no longer compromised by the scandal of disunity....The Ecumenical Patriarchate espouses another system of canonicity and an ecclesiological vision, which it extended to North America in the 1920’s with the establishment of the Greek Archdiocese... It does not accept the status of the OCA as an autocephalous church, in regards to how they define autocephaly. This is by no means universal, contrary to their claims; nor is their interpretation of the canons universally accepted....The Orthodox Church in America has never been under the jurisdiction of Constantinople, or any other Church but the Russian Church, for the past 215 years, and operates as a fully canonical autocephalous Church under the canonical tradition of her Mother Russian Orthodox Church...The Orthodox Church in America fully affirms the primacy of the Patriarch of Constatinople. We reject, however, the canonical interpretations that compromise our canonical tradition...Through the 1920’s the Russian Mission formed the basis of a united canonical Orthodox Church in America. The Antiochians, Serbs and Albanians, were all originally a part of this united Church, though we certainly admit that many Greek churches were not. Though these groups eventually developed their own hierarchies sent from their mother churches, they did not subordinate themselves to the Ecumenical Patriarchate in this continent. Neither did the Romanians and Bulgarians, most of whom joined the OCA with most of the Albanians...We are very willing to work with the Ecumenical Patriarchate and other churches to resolve the issue of Orthodox unity in America, and earnestly desire to resolve any obstacles. But we will not surrender our integrity as a local territorial indigenous church. We have a kenotic vocation; but that only opens out into a more fully catholic expression of an indigenous local Church...Episcopal assemblies are fine, though we believe their president should be freely elected. But they are not synods, much less autocephalous churches...."

The Orthodox Church said...

A few more numbers
TURKEY a breakdown...
Religions:
Muslim: 97.00%
Christian: 0.30%

Christianity:
Orthodox: 147,080
Catholics: 31,595
Protestants: 29,618
Independent: 35,120

Isa Almisry said...

Btw, on the number of Christians in the Turkish Republic: the number of Orthodox include the Patriarchate of Antioch, which the Turks occupy, and in which city the Arabs are forbidden to publically display our language. Even in private, the service books at the Patriarchate are in Arabic written with the Turkish version of the Latin Alphabet.

When I was in Antioch in 1992, it was heartening to see the Church overflowing with children. There had to be hundreds.

The Orthodox Church said...

Isa your passion is commendable but almost all your facts are wrong: not a good combination.

1). About Orthodox History in America visit www.orthodoxhistory.org and get the facts.

2). “first church of the Moscow Patriarchate in Turkey” is in fact is an embassy chapel of Sts Constantine & Helen, in summer residence of Russian consulate, which BTW, HAH Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew consecrated.

3). Nobody recognizes the OCA’s autocephaly because it was founded un-canonically by a church (MP) who was clearly out of its canonical jurisdiction… MP was on the coattails of Russian Czarist expansion and now wants to force everybody to buy their lies (good ‘ol Russian tactic).

4). “Jerusalem (where they are killing the Church)” - all I can say here is: you’re out to lunch…

There are so many outrageous and false statements you put forward that is almost as laughable as the theorists lacking judgment over at the AOI website and the foolish individuals bunched together over there, the scary thing is, you sound like you believe it.

The reality of the OCA is hard to recognize: the fact that their status is un-canonical is clear. The fact that you can’t accept it is sad.

Isa Almisry said...

As Elgreca liked your comment so much, and gave it its own thread, I posted the response there.

I'll just add here on 4: look at the writing of St. Raphael Hawaweeny (or do you not recognize him because the OCA canonized him?)
An Historical Glance at the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre:
http://www.frmichel.najim.net/brotherenglish.pdf

I might add also, you obviously haven't been to the Patriarchate of Antioch either, to compare how Antioch has thrived while Jerusalem has withered the last century.

Dean said...

Isa,

I've heard before about the Russians "waltzing into Hagia Sophia" and conducting a memorial service.

Is this really true? Are there any pictures.

Those Russians...gotta hand it to them...they have no fear.

Best Regards,
Dean Calvert

The Orthodox Church said...

Isa

Of course St. Raphael Hawaweeny... he was educated at Halki ;)

BTW I have read his writings; your novel cherry picking doesn't change the un-canonical order which the Russians have had for centuries.

Why not re-read (if you ever read it to begin with) the “Golden Seal Certificate” which clearly defines the canonical territory of the Moscow Patriarchate. Parenthetically point it doesn't include much of Asia and certainly not Alaska...

This little fact is always ignored by you and the cronies of deceit at the AOI. At best they'll use some pathetic statement like "well there was nobody else..." blah blah blah.

You know "Those Russians...gotta hand it to them...they have no fear."

Dean said...

At the Friday night Sept 4 first session of the Missions and Evangelism conference, OCA Primate Met Jonah makes a strong call for unity preceded in importance only by the preaching of the Gospel.
You will not hear a more precise or inspiring explanation of the need for Orthodox unity on this continent than this stirring and illuminating presentation.

Some of the comments include:

"We are not Christians unless we evangelize..."

"Be transformed in the renewal of your mind,"

"The Orthodox Church in America and the Antiochian Archdiocese have an imperative to come together."

"...we've got to get over this - we've got to get over these divisions...but we have to respect the diversity within the Church - because that ethnic diversity, the cultural diversity is actually something beautiful which can enrich our experience of Orthodoxy..."

"The bishop with his clergy and the faithful serving the Divine Liturgy...wherever that is present - there is the fullness of the catholic church..."

"If we think that by the fact that we are in some kind of a canonical relationship with an Old World patriarch - that that patriarch is the guarantee of our catholicity..if that's the case, then we have no choice but to submit to Rome...that's Roman Catholic ecclesiology, that's not our ecclesiology. Orthodox ecclesiology is the ecclesiology of the local church...the local church territorially defined, and quite frankly, this doesn't look like Damascus - it doesn't look like Bucharest..it certainly doesn't look like Moscow..."

To listen to the entire presentation, visit http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/tag/ancient-faith-radio/

Best Regards,
Dean