1. Which OC established the first churces in North America? The un-canonical Russian Diocese of Irkutsk sent eight Orthodox missionaries from the Valaamo Monastery in the northern Karelia region of Russia in 1794. Since “…the canons actually provide for no possibility of missionary work outside ecumenically defined canonical territories. (That makes it, by definition, un-canonical)” These holy men clearly and unquestionably went beyond the geography of their jurisdiction. So the Moscow Patriarchate in a fit if Russian Imperial expansion established the first missionary churches in Americas.
The first contiguous parish was in 1864 in New Orleans by Greeks.
2. Which OC had a continuous line of bishops in North America from its inception to the present? None even in Alaska the Holy Synod closed the see in 1811. Though several OCs have had continuous line of Bishops from their officially recognized and individual conceptions. Though historically and ecclesiastically speaking which has the canonical authority to have done so, certainly not the “Diocese of Alaska –and- All North America” a bit far reaching, even for the Russians.
3. Which OC undertook massive evangelistic programs in North America during the 19th century? In the 19th century the only evangelistic programs in North America, though surely not massive, were in Alaska by two or three monks from the Moscow Patriarchate again without canonical Jurisdiction clearly defined in the Golden Seal certificate.
4. Which OC looked for, and cared for the massive waves of incoming Orthodox immigrants who were not part of its nationality? According to historical documents, none!. Though I am sure you would love to force feed us the fallacy of the Russian Metropolia who could even keep their New York Embassy chapel opened?
5. Which OC looked to create ethnic exarchates to minister to these new groups? This I must concede. The sinful Ethno-phyletism was promoted by the offspring of the Moscow Patriarchate here in America. Though the rest of the world was condemning nationalism and still does the future OCA was pimping it out as quick as it could.
6. Which OC actually created two ethnic exarchates for two of these new groups? The future OCA. Seems a bit Ironic, those ranting about unity and ‘those bad ethnic’ churches were the first to separate peoples by ethnic identity.
7. Why did this OC do this? By what right did it do so? This OC did this because, it is obvious and historically evident, the Patriarchate of Moscow since the 16th century has been rabidly following the coattails of the Imperial Russian expansionist. The MP and its illegitimately founded dioceses and daughter churches chose to ignore Canon Law and/or unilaterally alter those laws to assist in their expansionist ideals, All for Mother Russia!
By what right did it do so? A right -not conferred not conferred by Canon Law; A right -not visible ethically or morally in church practice; A right –not excepted by all other justifications (Except Poland and the Czech lands)
Inevitably by NO RIGHT AT ALL!
The OCA was illegitimately formed by an un-canonical jurisdiction far reaching beyond Moscow's geographical jurisdiction. Unilaterally granting autocephaly simply justifies Moscow's illegitimate actions and intentions.
11 comments:
Is it the previous story of the EP's uncanonical actions which can get him deposed that has pierced your spleen?
Did you post this on AOI?
1. Amuse us with how the Irkutsk Diocese was uncanonical.
You use quotation marks, but provide no citation. Tell us, who dared to contradict Our Lord's Great Commission?
The interpretatoin of the Pedalion, written around the time of St. Herman's mission, speaks of jurisdiction over barbarians bordering a diocese.
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/_P1W.HTM
Alaska, btw, was in Russia.
The first parish in the contiguous 48 states was Holy Trinity at Fort Ross, the Russian settlement at SF. The remnants went on to found what is now Holy Trinity OCA Cathedral in SF.
The first priest of the New Orleans parish (a lovely one, btw) went to SF demanding an antimens. He was refused.
http://www.holy-trinity.org/
2. The bishops you seem to be aluding to are the DEPOSED Meletios and the DEFROCKED Alexander, said action being taken by the CoG against them.
The Holy Synod closed the Kodiak auxiliary of the Irkutsk diocese. In 1840 ST. Innocent was consecrated, his see continuing in Alaska and his primacy in Met. Jonah, unbroken until this day. The primate who moved it to NYC, St. Tikhon, went on, like St. Innocent, to head the Russian Church, and become a neo-martyr. Then there is the line of bishops from the consecration of St. Raphael, the first consecration in the New World. That would be Met. Philip's predecessor.
How many canonized saints in that line of bishops you were talking about?
3. Your documents say "All Russia and the Northern Lands." Alaska is up north.
The majority of the Alaskans converted after the Russians, much to the frustration of the Protestant military administration.
The Alaskan diocese converted thousands in PA, MN, etc.: they form the core of the OCA.
The bishops also saw to the translation of the services into the native languages, including English.
What missionary work did that line of bishops you were talking about do in the 19th cent. Ooops. Forgot. They were not here.
to be cont...
4. You should check things out before you write: the OCA had Serbs, Carpathorussians, Arabs, and even Greeks! Here is the report of the Serbian priest at the OCA SF cathedral receiving the credentials of the new Greek priest.
http://www.transfigcathedral.org/faith/corner/Dabovich.pdf
Then there is the missionary priest Fr. Michael Andreades, from Constantinople, who worked out of the SF mission for the Pacific Northwest.
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/pubs/ACF2AA.pdf
Also:
http://www.archive.org/stream/peopleofeasterno00epis/peopleofeasterno00epis_djvu.txt
http://orthodoxhistory.org/?p=16#comments
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20839.msg351047/topicseen.html#msg351047
US census on religion 1906
http://books.google.com/books?id=5zsTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA436&dq=Churches+Greek+Church+1897&lr=#v=onepage&q=Churches%20Greek%20Church%201897&f=false
5. Ma kettle calling the Melting Pot of the OCA black. LOL. Look at the over primary documents: they all blame the Greeks for ethnocentrism. To that I'll add Burgess (1912) who notes that the Greeks were part of the Russian Mission's parishes, "But in all of these places, as soon as the Greeks became numerous enough, they established their own purely Greek church community under the jurisdiction of Constantinople or Athens."
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20839.msg352113/topicseen.html#msg352113
See what you Chief Secretary said about those congregationalist parishes, formed purely on nationalsim.
The OCA ethnic diocese meet the needs of immigrant groups as per the bishops for "barbarians" in canon 28. Better than, say the Greek practice of excommunicating Albanians because they spoke Albanian.
Meletios was quite a nationalist politician. His statements are in the NY Times for instance, showing how the Catastrophe of the 1920's happened.
6. Since you don't spit it out, I am not sure who you are speaking of. If, for instance you are trying to depricate St. Raphael, although he spoke both Russian and Arabic (and Greek) his flock did not.
7. Canon 28.
Ignoring canon law got the EP in trouble the entire 19th century.
And again, get your facts straight: Bulgaria and Georgia, in addition to Poland and the Czech and Slovak lands agree with Russia.
Serbia and Romania's jurisdiction was derived from the Russian mission. Antioch approved and provided St. Raphael to the RM, and the Antiochians still trace the Archdiocese to him. The Albania Church was born in Boston, under the RM.
Only the Greek controlled Churches constest any of the above, 3 of which have set up jurisdictions thenmselves in defiance of the EP.
From beginning to end, the Russian Church has acted within and by the canons. Same can't be said for a couple other jurisdictions....
Certainly more will be stated on the matter but for now PUT DOWN THE COOL AID bro!!
I must say from the outside looing in that the oca is not russian with their pergoies, their onion domes in let's just say florida. What god are oinion domes in florida except to assert a nationalism. oh yeah and by the way it was the EP who sent out Cyrill and Methodios remember them?
Yes, I remember them, just like I remember my parents and grandparents, but still grew up, got married, had kids, bought a house etc. and had my parents over for dinner. My inlaws in fact lived with us at my suggestion (btw, MISTAKE).
As to question on the onion domes, East Roman architecture isn't native to Florida either. I LOVE perogis and don't have a drop of slavic blood that I know of. Nor do the convert nuns under the omophorion of Antioch (yeah, I know, uncanonical to you too) in Guatemala, but look at their church in the jungle:
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/31235.htm
Oh, the OCA at its lastest meeting of the Holy Synod announced they are looking into catechising and receiving the 100,000 that the Abbess Inez speaks of.
Btw, look at the update on the Ukrainians.
The difference I would like to address at this time is hypocracy. The OCA fails to acknowledge its ethnic roots (onion domes and russian style crosses), because it wants to be all things to all people. The other juristictions world wide can embrace their ethnic traditions and embrace the Liturgical Life with them.
Isa
No, I did not post those comments on AOI because the AOI: Fr Johanese, George M, John C and Dean C and others are great promoters of propaganda and only allow some posts through. They seem a dialogue works better when any educated position is simply not offered (or better supressed). They sling subtle insults and verbal abuse at anyone who oppose their view, then continue the character assassination only to reprimand and admonish ones spelling, before attempting to educate everyone on Orthodox Praxis. LOL
I recommend a good psychotherapist for you and the AOI Klan, though I declare it doesn't seem like any amount of therapy will help. For unlike when Vladyka Hierotheos Vlachos says “The Orthodox Church seeks to heal the sick personality of man and indeed this is the work of Orthodox theology” it seems to be the opposite for the AOI “Orthodoxy seems to embolden the sick personality”.
Your deep seeded: abhorrence, loathing, revulsion, disgust, odium, detestation and extreme dislike of large parts of Church’s Body; as we are all one body, is negating any point you or the AOI groupies occasionally make.
It seems a bit antithetical that you feel at ease to amputate much of the church because you simply disagree with statements made by a chief secretary, even when he is correct.
Also like you the the AOI completely change the subject insert questionable facts and assert truisms which are in fact lies. It’s really a feeble attempt.
Your position and the AOI’s defenders are pathetic schismatics who at best need a forum upon which your egos can be stroked by each other.
Your AOI is a tiny insignificant group of highly educated bigoted Phanarophobes at best!
Ooh that was cathartic, thanks Isa and thank AOI
My, you do have a problem with oninion domes. Did you look at the Guatemalan convent? The sisters are Guatlemala, their jurisdiction Arab. Are they in denial about something?
Btw, since neither SS Cyril nor Methodosius evangelized neither Aelxandria nor Antioch (though they did make it to Baghdad), I'm not sure why you want me to tremble at the reference to them.
The OCA has Romanians who have their own epsicopate. The Romanians aren't slavs and can't stand the Russians, btw. The Albanains have their own Albanian diocese in the OCA: in fact, the diocese is the Mother Church of Tirane.
The OCA acknowledges their roots, just not engagle others in them, nor chained by them.
I don't have any issues with ethnic expressions in the church architecture or iconography. I have no issue with using the language of the vernacular although I believe Greek to be the most accurate because the New Testament is a Greek phenomena. I mention SS. Cyril and Methodius because they were sent as an envoy to the Slavs. I take issue with some of your accounts as historical and the claims that the OCA are non ethnic or nondenominational which is impossible.
Couldn't tell that you were at ease with the onion domes from your posts.
The New Testament is a Semitic phenomena. Maran tha!
The OCA is pan-ethnic. And non ethnic: you are aware, for instance, that His Beatitude Met. Jonah is not Russian?
Of course the OCA is nondemoninational: it's ORTHODOX. We (and that includes you and everyone else in the diptychs) are the CHURCH, not a denomination.
Btw, SS Cyril and Methodius were sent by St EP Photios, but they had to get the permission of, and were under the jurisdiction, of the Pope of Rome, just as, btw, Greece had been.
TOC,
Quite a persecusion complex you got going there, complete with projection. Physician, heal thyself.
Large part of the Body? The Phanar is quite small, the phanariot mentality smaller still. The latter is what I take issue with.
The only thing the Chief Secretary said that was correct was his characterization of the founding of the parishes in the proto-GOANSA.
If you think I am lying: I've posted links to documentation and could post more. Where is your evidence?
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